Interview with Outhmane and Fatiha
Image Metadata
Created: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 - 13:15 |
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Description:
Juania Sueños interviews Adil Dghoughi's brother Othmane and mother Fatiha. Adil was murdered by Terry Turner in Caldwell County while sitting in his parked car in 2022. The interview covers the family's experiences as Moroccan immigrants to the United States, their relationships with Adil, Adil's hobbies and interests, gun laws and the gun lobby, Trump and racism, and the impact of Adil's murder on the family.
Transcription:
[TAPE 1]
JUANIA SUEÑOS: [00:00:04] Okay, perfect so as an immigrant myself, I came here with a lot of big dreams. And so one of my questions is, why did you come to the United States?
OUTHMANE DGHOUGHI: [00:00:17] I came to the United States because–first it was, that's what we studied. For example, the accounting in Morocco is a different system than in United States. So when I went to an American school in Morocco, we [Adil, Othman’s brother & him] studied American accounting and American economics. And so that’s one one part of it, and second part, it was my dream to come to the United States. I hoped it would be like a dream land where everybody's equal, where, [00:00:49] where everybody has rights, where everything is good. Like law wise, the law is applied in a in a very good manner. [00:00:59] But everything changed now.
FATIHA DGHOUGHI: And the freedom [00:01:02]
OUTHMANE: The way I used to think United States is, it's not it it’s, it's not.
SUEÑOS: What do you see now?
OUTHMANE: Like I see danger. I see danger. I see, I see hate. I see inequality. I see discrimination. I see--
FATIHA: Corruption.
OUTHMANE: Corruption. I see [00:01:27] racism.
SUEÑOS: So are you shocked? Are you shocked from this?
OUTHMANE: Yes of course I am shocked. Yes, sometimes now I'm thinking to go back to Morocco. Like, it came to my mind. Before I never had in my mind to go back to Morocco because I already started my life here. But now, I am afraid. I am, as I told you like, I cannot go to the streets now, and park in somebody's driveway or just near to his house. I'm afraid. So, I'm afraid from the police now if they want to retaliate because what I did. So I'm just afraid. And also I'm– [00:01:58] like everything that I thought, hoped the United States would be, it is not. Especially after this, what happened to my brother. Like I could see deep inside the system and it's not, it's not, it's not okay. There's a lot of gaps. There's a lot of things that gives the right to people with higher power. Give them the right to play with anything they want. So for example, that the, [00:02:28] the grand jury, it should be very, very secret (??). And so [00:02:35] like as I said, like there's a lot of things that changing my mind, especially racism, hate and discrimination. And, you know, they think that we are not the same. We are not made of the same thing. So, I never chose to be born white, or gray, or brown or red or yellow. I was born this way. So if they have some problem, they should have it with God. Not me. It's God who created us. So if they want to, if they want to criticize somebody then they can talk to God and ask him why he created us. It's not our problem. So that's all. That's all I can say about that.
SUEÑOS: How do you think that Adil saw the United States?
OUTHMANE: He saw it same as me. We had the same thinking about United States. Same thought. [00:03:20] he was hoping to have children, to have family, better job, [00:03:26] easier life, which is not. It's harder in here. It's harder. It's more harder to live in the United States than in Morocco.
SUEÑOS: [00:03:35] In what ways do you mean?
OUTHMANE: You know, you are in danger twenty-four hours, like you never know with these laws of guns, people can carry their guns with them and there is no accountability for people use guns. Of course, it's hard. Like, you have to think about your future, you have to think about being safe, staying alive first. And so I think it's very hard, the United States now. It is very hard. It's not what I thought. And my brother too, he used to see it as dream place. A lot of opportunities. But not now.
SUEÑOS: [00:04:17] And just so you know at any point we can take breaks, drink water and anything like that.
OUTHMANE: No it's okay, take your time, take your time.
SUEÑOS: [00:04:25] So are there migrants in your country of origin, in Morocco? Are there immigrants that come there from other places?
OUTHMANE: In my country? Yes. It's the--Morocco is the leading country in Africa. So all African people, they are moving to Morocco and also Spanish people because there is–Spain we all know (??) is very bad. So people from Spain, they're moving to Morocco, people from France, they're moving to Morocco, Americans are moving to Morocco. I had a friend of mine, he's a YouTuber, he was born and raised in Texas, American, white. And I took him with me to Morocco. Now he moved there. He lives next to my house. And I made sure he rent a good place and I made sure he has good friends. And I created a good environment for him. Now he's living it. Just like six months now, he moved there.
SUEÑOS: Oh, wow. Why do you think so many people are coming there?
OUTHMANE: It's because we're lovely people. We're very welcoming. Something that is ours is never ours. Like we share a lot. We're very [00:05:28] welcoming, like we welcome people. [00:05:31] We are happy when we see other people happy. So I think that's--and then it's very secure. We're not like–it's very rare that there is crimes in Morocco. Very rare.
SUEÑOS: Do you think there is racism and discrimination there?
OUTHMANE: No, I don't think so.
SUEÑOS: Against immigrants?
OUTHMANE: No, I don't think so. Because there's African people with like darker colors and they give them jobs and so--and they're like they're part of our society.
SUEÑOS: There's no like rhetoric like there is here of--
OUTHMANE: No
SUEÑOS: You know, these are bad people?
OUTHMANE: No. No. If there is something done people keep it in, it's their own opinion. So people keep it in, for their own. But they never do something to hurt these people.
FATIHA: [00:06:13] I don't know whether you like it too sweet? You can drink some more with sugar.
SPEAKER 4: I like it with no sugar.
FATIHA: With no sugar?
SPEAKER 4: Well, if you tell me I need sugar then I'll put sugar but--
SUEÑOS: If you tell me--
OUTHMANE: She already put sugar
FATIHA: I put poquito
SPEAKER 4: Okay cool. poquito is perfect.
SUEÑOS: Those are really pretty glasses.
FATIHA: Thank you. [00:06:36]
OUTHMANE: You don't want?
FATIHA: I will ask Brenda. Take that.
OUTHMANE: Oh, for Brenda. When Shahir and Rebecca come here, they finish the whole thing, they loved it. And when the police come to my house, they loved it.
SUEÑOS: This is Moroccan tea?
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: What is it called? It's pretty.
OUTHMANE: It's black tea or green tea, I guess, with mint. But it's cooked the Moroccan way.
SUEÑOS: Oh the Moroccan way.
OUTHMANE: Yes be careful it's very hot.
SPEAKER 4: It’s fantastic. Very tasty.
SUEÑOS: You already tried it?
SPEAKER 4: A little bit.
OUTHMANE: Be careful. It's very hot. The way we do it is we do like [slurping] [00:07:22] to not to be too hot. [00:07:26]
SPEAKER 4: I couldn't hear you baby.
SUEÑOS: Mmm. That's really good.
SPEAKER 4: He showed us how to
(slurping) [00:07:33]
OUTHMANE: But yeah, I knew which way, I burned my tongue already.
SUEÑOS: It kind of reminds me of, what did I make lately? That my uncle sent?
SPEAKER 4: Oh yeah, I forget what it's called.
SUEÑOS: Yerbaniz
OUTHMANE: Lebanese It's very close to Lebanese tea. But this is Moroccan.
SPEAKER 4: Yerbaniz, it's a Spanish word.
OUTHMANE: Oh Yerbaniz. I thought it was Lebanese.
SPEAKER 4: Oh yerba like herb and then–
SUEÑOS: And then aniz.
SPEAKER 4: Aniz, oh ok.
OUTHMANE: Aniz? That's mint. That's almost mint, aniz is. It's from the same DNA.
SUEÑOS: Yeah, it's really yummy. I have this tea, it only grows in Zacatecas, it's like a wildflower. But it's a kind of Marigold. You know what marigolds are?
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes. Yes. We use some flowers in it sometimes, but the typical way is mint. Mint water, the tea and sugar. But it just the way you make it, you see, it's very dark. So yes.
SPEAKER 4: It's delicious.
OUTHMANE: She take it? [00:08:32]
SUEÑOS: [00:08:35] Are you gonna come sit here?
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes, she's coming. Yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:08:40] Thank you for the tea. This is really yummy.
FATIHA: You're welcome. [00:08:43]
OUTHMANE: I'm not sure, Fatiha [00:08:47] heard kind of how Texas After Violence operates as far as editing and--
SUEÑOS: Oh, yeah, so any any comments or anything that you make we can stop at any moment and drink water or you know, take a break or you can decline to answer anything. And then also, that was what was in the paperwork that Othman signed. And then also the kinds of interviews that I wanted to do for their project is more of seeing Adil as the person that he was rather than seeing him as the tragedy that happened to him, or a number or a statistic. And so I kind of want to create a profile of the person that he was. So I got the music that he liked, the food that he liked. And so that sort of information is probably what I would ask you. Yeah, so in the individual, I think it was Sarah? That said that he liked Janis Joplin.
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes. Yes. He likes also, he likes the same as me, like Guns and Roses [00:09:57]. Old rock and roll too. Like eighties nineties music and he also liked Moroccan rap. He listened to a lot of Moroccan rap, but not Spanish. No no reggaeton.
SUEÑOS: No reggaeton (laughs).
OUTHMANE: [00:10:10] No. Maybe pop, little bit of pop music, but old ones and [00:10:17] as I said, Nirvana, [00:10:20] Guns, N Roses, Metallica, [00:10:24] Eric Clapton, Jack Johnson, if you know Jack Johnson, so it's just like just smooth, smooth, rock and roll. Not the heavy one.
SUEÑOS: Oh, wow.
OUTHMANE: Like, I don't know what you call it. Yeah that's the type of music he liked.
FATIHA: [00:10:39] he used to cook. He was a good cook.
OUTHMANE: Italian.
FATIHA: Italian food.
OUTHMANE: He was good at making pizzas and–
SUEÑOS: Chicken piccata, right? Chicken piccata?
OUTHMANE: Yes. yes. and pizzas and also [00:10:53] Italian salads and pasta. He was good at this.
SUEÑOS: And how did he know how to cook this?
OUTHMANE: He was working Italian restaurants.
FATIHA: When I went to his place he used to cook Italian for me all the time.
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
FATIHA: Yes
SUEÑOS: [00:11:08] What was your favorite thing that he made?
FATIHA: Oh, he made pasta and salad, that special salad that he used to make. [00:11:17] And it was good.
SUEÑOS: Did he make the pasta from scratch with a little--
OUTHMANE: Yes with the cheese, everything from scratch, yes.
SUEÑOS: Oh no way. Wow. I think someone-, I can't remember who described it to me this way. But someone said that when he cooked Italian food, it was like an art because he was so delicate.
OUTHMANE: Yes, he'd take time and yes, I think it's--you only cook it when you have passion.
FATIHA: With love, passion with love. [00:11:47] All what he did he did with passion and love, and he was very careful.
OUTHMANE: He liked fishing.
FATIHA: He was very helpful. He was [00:12:00] caring for people, for his brothers, for his neighbors, for the family, the big family, and the little family. He was all the time, leading his brother and sister, the ones who were still in Morocco.[00:12:18] So he was always asking them and following their current, their studies and asking them and helping them choose in taking the, the right things for them.
OUTHMANE: He loves animals like me.
FATIHA: He loves animals
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
OUTHMANE: He loves animals. Yes. [00:12:34] peekaboo (??), she would bite anybody but him, no. Me, she would bite me, but the first time she met him, she doesn't bite him.
SUEÑOS: Really?
OUTHMANE: And now the one that–the dog that bites, now if we come and ask him where is Adil? He'll be looking for him. He knows his name.
FATIHA: He starts looking, he starts going and looking for him everywhere.
OUTHMANE: He would go to his room and check if he's there. If not, he'll be next (??), the dog waiting for him to come. [00:12:58] So he loved animal. He loved fishing, doing outdoor kayaking.
SUEÑOS: He liked kayaking?
OUTHMANE: Yes he liked kayaking.
FATIHA: Camping.
OUTHMANE: Camping
FATIHA: He liked camping.
OUTHMANE: He loved outdoor. Everything that has to do with outdoor, he loved it. He loved playing soccer, tennis too, he plays it with me, tennis. Swimming, he loved swimming so--
FATIHA: When he died and there was the [00:13:24]
OUTHMANE: Autopsy? [00:13:31]
FATIHA: (Speaking in Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Oh funeral.
FATIHA: The funeral. Yeah. The funeral. And people were coming and presenting condolences and everything. And there was a little boy. Let's say, let's say nine years old or something or ten years old and he didn't know me. So, he came to the house and he knocked at the door. I want to see auntie. Auntie Haja (??), Auntie Fatiha. And I went to him I said, yes? He said, I came to present my condolences for Adil. He said--I asked him, do you know him? How do you know? He said yes, I know him. How do you know him? He said I know him because all the time that I met– that when he went to Morocco and he met him around, he gave--he used to give me some money and then, and he was crying and crying the little boy, and he used to give me some money. That's why I came to present my condolences because I’m really sad for him.
OUTHMANE: Another friend of ours, he told me that I had to go to the hospital and I didn't have money and I told your brother, but I didn't tell him to give me money. I just told him I had to go and my brother sent him money to, to go to the hospital.
FATIHA: Even he had, he didn't have extra money.
OUTHMANE: He didn't have so much money, he still helped people.
FATIHA: But the money, the little money he had, he used to help people with, whenever they are in need.
SUEÑOS: One of his friends, I think maybe one of his roommates? [00:14:56] told me that he let him borrow the car.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: And that he was really worried, not Adil, but the friend was really worried and he said, are you sure?
OUTHMANE: Yes. My brother told him, yes.
SUEÑOS: Cause I'm not on the insurance. [00:15:07] and what did he say? What did he say?
OUTHMANE: He was like no you--just if–we have insurance if you want to hit the wall, hit the wall, don't worry. Just be comfortable.
SUEÑOS: [00:15:15] Like yeah, just be comfortable driving the car. Don't be scared.
FATIHA: And he used to help all the friends who--the Moroccan who came here in the United States. They came for the first time. So he was to, he used to bring them to his home and stay there for a little while till--and help them find a job or find a car and settled still, till they go, [00:15:41] they can go out by themselves you know?
SUEÑOS: How long had he been in the states?
OUTHMANE: [00:15:47] Nine years.
FATIHA: Adil?
OUTHMANE: Nine years.
FATIHA: Nine years maybe.
SUEÑOS: [00:15:53] So after he graduated, he wanted to continue living here.
FATIHA: Yes. Yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes. Nine years.
FATIHA: He is an American citizen.
SUEÑOS: Oh, he's an American citizen.
OUTHMANE: He just became like two years ago, a year and a half ago, he became citizen.
SUEÑOS: [00:16:08] Are you an American citizen?
OUTHMANE: No, I'm a permanent resident. [00:16:12] But I can apply for the passport, like maybe one year, less than in one year. And I can apply for the passport.
SUEÑOS: In less than one year?
OUTHMANE: Less than one year, yes.
SUEÑOS: So you've had it for almost five years?
OUTHMANE: No, no, it's because I was divorced. So I applied for different things. And I only, I only need to wait three years after the green card. Not five years.
SUEÑOS: Oh really? That's good.
OUTHMANE: Mmhmm. Because I applied for something special and [00:16:42] I only need to wait three years–
FATIHA: Not two?
OUTHMANE: No, three. And you can apply three months before.
SUEÑOS: So did you and Adil come with a student visa?
OUTHMANE: Yes. We both come with student visas.
SUEÑOS: Are they hard to come by? Are they hard to get?
OUTHMANE: Yes, you need to show proof of income, like that your parents has money to pay for your school and it's very hard. It is very hard.
FATIHA: I had to sell some lands to pay for their education. Lands that I inherited. [00:17:17] So it costed a lot, a lot, a lot of money. And now he's gone. No land. No Adil.
OUTHMANE: [00:17:26] It's okay. It's okay. It’s okay. Don't cry. Don't cry.
SUEÑOS: [00:17:42] It's okay if you cry, I don't mind. [00:17:45] I'm really sorry about all of that. That's really scary. When the, the crazy man shot I don't know, twenty-six people at Walmart and they were all Hispanic. I don't know. It's turning into a scary country here.
OUTHMANE: Yes. especially after Trump, especially after Trump. And he's now, now he is lying about every single thing. He lies and Republicans are still following his lies. I don't know where this is going. Who knows that he's a product of Russia. Sometimes I really think about it. Maybe it's Russia. They are bullying him about something. They have something against him and they like oh, if you don't do this, maybe we'll show the American public and he does whatever Putin wants. [00:18:28] So so Russia now if they want to fight United States, they don't have to come here with weapons. They can just put one person who creates a civil war and the way it's going now, I think there's gonna be civil war coming very soon. Divided.
FATIHA: Now I think there more and more states that with guns are allowed?
OUTHMANE: No, no, no. It not more states are allowed, it's the same. The wild west. But it's just now, there's more hate. There is now more and more people are divided. Before it was okay, especially when Obama was there, they were okay. People were liking each other, but now he created division. Trump.
FATIHA: [00:19:08] In Morocco I'm used to do jogging, go jogging twice or three times a week, and I came here and I went out. I still (??) I got ready and then I was scared. I did it once and that's it. So I was walking and every time I was just watching like this someone will come out and to shoot, just like this. Say that I'm on his driveway or something. That;s really scary.
OUTHMANE: [00:19:36] And there's a lot of mental issues. People have so much mental issues and they need to think about what causing this because it's more than all the countries.
SUEÑOS: Yeah.
OUTHMANE: It's too much. It's either the stress of life, or it's either--I don't know what is it, but people are, they have mental issues a lot. I'm sure that guy has mental issues too because who's gonna come and shoot somebody for no reason.
SUEÑOS: For no reason.
OUTHMANE: I'm sure he has like some mental issues that can be included as hate too, because that's a mental problem.
SUEÑOS: It's like the only country really where people just kind of--
OUTHMANE: Yes, there is crazy--there is something going on. Like people come and shoot people like as you said in Walmart for no reason. What is that? That doesn't happen anywhere else. Why it's not happening in France? Why it's not happening in Europe? It's not happening at all. Like not even one time.
SUEÑOS: You think it's also, I think maybe it's individualism?
OUTHMANE: I think it's how the law is designed. Is how the law is giving people too much freedom to do stuff, like too much freedom. And that's what happens when you give people too much freedom. When you allow them to carry a gun with them for the, for the sake of protecting themselves. I don't think that's a good idea.
SUEÑOS: This is really yummy. Thank you. And the tea.
FATIHA: You're welcome.
OUTHMANE: I think it's just, it's just the law giving them too much freedom because in France and stuff like that, they don't have all this much, all this freedom. Then here is just I think it's too much. Especially trespassing. Somebody trespass you shoot him. What the heck is this? Like, oh, yes, you can defend yourself. But if you break the lock of your house, and he's getting inside or something like that. Yes, then I agree.
FATIHA: Or near and close to your house okay. You feel a afraid and then-- .
OUTHMANE: But somebody outside, call the cops. If he does what his mind tells him, [00:21:35] Then I will do what my mind tells me and Jordan(??) will do the same and you will do the same, and nobody will be alive in this world. If we all think like Terry Turner then nobody will stay alive. So that's what I said is like, they're giving them too much freedom. It's like they are encouraging them. The law is encouraging people to use lethal force, or to kill people or to like–if they didn't allow rifles, like why are you going to allow people to have riffles, why? This is not for protection, a gun is enough for protection. So rifle, when you allow somebody with a rifle then he goes and he shoots twenty-seven people, fourty, fifty people. So the question is, is that for protection or not? No, rifle is not for protection. That's for war. That's to kill people. It's not to protect yourself. So I think it's just, it's the law. The way it's designed is encouraging people to do more things and, and the lack of accountability too. Like Trump did so many things and he's not going to jail. So, it starts from the top to the bottom, and you can see that the guy who shot my brother he didn't get arrested for eleven days. And if I did that, then I would be arrested the same day. I wouldn't–they wouldn't even give me a bond. They wouldn't even give me a bond. Especially me, a Muslim. They would be like, oh, he's a terrorist. So it's only terrorist when a Muslim guy does it, but when a person does it, a white person does it, oh, he's mentally ill.
FATIHA: Or sensitive(??)
OUTHMANE: He's mentally ill. No, it's mentally ill. But when a Muslim does it oh it's terrorism. But Terrorism is terror, you make people afraid. That doesn't have anything to do with religion. So people who shoots twenty-seven people in Walmart, that's terrorism too. But I bet, I bet you you would never hear people saying it.
SUEÑOS: No. Abbott actually, the Texan governor, he refused to come out and publicly say that it was terrorism.
OUTHMANE: No he wouldn't. He would be like he's mentally ill or he's just an individual that did that, and it's wrong. And blah, blah, blah. And that's it. But they would never call it terrorism. Now we start like paying attention to these things, United States is very racist.
SUEÑOS: What do you think is going to happen to the other immigrants that are here like you and me and my brother?
OUTHMANE: Well, I think it's–everything depends on the government and on Democrats if they want to change things. But I don't think this, this country is safe for immigrants anymore.
FATIHA: No, as long as the lobby for guns exists–
OUTHMANE: Yes but that's what controls and influences (??)
FATIHA: It is getting more and more power. All these things will--
OUTHMANE: Now Terry Turner's lawyer is very expensive. Terry Turner doesn't have money. So, who's paying for it? [00:24:24] There's only one option is the gun–
FATIHA: Owners.
OUTHMANE: The gun organizations. The program organizations they're the one who's paying them. And if he win the case, I'm sure he would be writing books. [00:24:36] So you understand? Like people from their same, the same thing, that did the same as him, they'll be writing books showing off. Hey, look what I did and I killed and I got away with it and because we need to protect ourselves and blah, blah blah. He will be writing books. Trust me. If he wins the case. [00:24:55] And I'm sure. And you see how much [00:24:59] arrogant they became, especially those white people, they're crazy. I'm not, I'm not generalizing because I never see people different from their skin, but I'm talking about white people mentality. Not, not the white people like color, color wise.
SUEÑOS: Good note.
OUTHMANE: He understands.
SUEÑOS: He understands though because--
OUTHMANE: He knows me.
FATIHA: We would never say that [00:25:22] if we didn't see these things happening. You know?
OUTHMANE: But I'm talking about this mentality? Like redneck mentality–
FATIHA: The racists.
OUTHMANE: The proud boys, you know, the proud boys, like the white supremacists.
SUEÑOS: They've pit them all against us.
FATIHA: Oh yes.
OUTHMANE: That's all, it's all about culture, it's all about--and that's what the police did. Terry Turner is nobody, but they have him--in my opinion if he's nobody and they don't know each other, I think they're trying to protect the culture, the culture of guns. That's why they did this.
FATIHA: And the strangers–
OUTHMANE: No, it's (??)
FATIHA: No, I'm just saying something else. The strangers who come to United States and live to United States, most of them are peaceful. Most of them are peaceful. [00:26:13] They're just liking their way, doing their business, [00:26:19] except if someone trespass his, then (??)
OUTHMANE: [00:26:25] Because the government, the government makes so (??) Like you know what we go through. We go through a lot to get to the immigration.
SUEÑOS: [00:26:30] Why would we want to give that up?
OUTHMANE: And they make us suffer to get the green card or whatever they need to make sure that we are good person and they don't give us the green card until they are sure we are good people. So it's not us the problem. It's people of this country that are the problem. Not generalizing, but there's some--I'm talking about certain culture that is very dangerous in the United States. This, the people who think, I am white, I have the the privilege of doing everything I can.
FATIHA: More tea?
SUEÑOS: You liked it. It's good.
FATIHA: Help yourself. Please.
SUEÑOS: [00:27:08] Did Adil have a team?
FATIHA: It's not that sweet.
SUEÑOS: No it's not very sweet. It's really good. Thank you.
OUTHMANE: You just don't know where this country is going. Seriously, I really don't know. But it's getting--well before it was changing to this way [00:27:30] but now it's accelerating, speeding. Especially with what's going on with Trump. It's speeding. The other day he was like, oh they're trying to get me to jail. So if they, if they get me to jail or something, I want you to go and protest in this and this. That's his way of telling them bring your guns and do civil war. Like it was very clear he wants civil war. And if he's going down, he better have organized that going down. And what makes him choose, choose problems, what makes him choose something else than his country? You understand? Like, he knows civil war is not good for his country. He knows that it's not gonna be good. He has a lot of money that he's gonna lose if the civil war comes, but he's still ignoring that. So, this is another power that’s making him do that. So, I don't know there's a lot of division now. A lot of racism, a lot of hate, lot of, I don't know. It's going somewhere where--
FATIHA: Well let's come to Adil here. Have you any other questions?
SUEÑOS: [00:28:35] I was going to ask what his soccer team was? Did he like your team?
OUTHMANE: Oh, Wydad, Wydad Athletic.
SUEÑOS: Can you spell that for me?
OUTHMANE: Wydad Athletic, Wydad is like this--
FATIHA: [00:28:51] W-Y
SUEÑOS: [00:28:53] So the family was split there because the two sons they go for the Wydad and then you go for the other one?
FATIHA: No, I'm the only one in the family who is Raja.
SUEÑOS: Why?
FATIHA: My husband, Asil, Basma (??), my daughter, and the two brothers, all of them are Wydad. And me I'm Raja.
SUEÑOS: Why are you Raja?
OUTHMANE: To be against us.
FATIHA: Just to be against the world (laughs)
OUTHMANE: Wydad Athletic Casablanca.
FATIHA: And the abbreviation is WAC, WAC.
SUEÑOS: [00:29:29] Yeah, that's, that's the word that you said at the restaurant is WAC. Okay. And then yours?
FATIHA: Mine is Raja Athletic Club.
SUEÑOS: So I can say that this is your team just to go against the boys.
SPEAKER 4: Did you like Raja since you were young?
FATIHA: No
SPEAKER 4: Only because of the family?
FATIHA: I hated football. [00:29:52] Until I got married, I had children. They started loving Wydad. So I said, I don't. Now, I am a fan, a real fan of Raja and I've defended Raja with all my (laughs)--- [00:30:09] Raja Athletic Club. [00:30:12] So, R-C-A.
SUEÑOS: [00:30:19] Thank you.
FATIHA: [00:30:23] And I don't know whether it's interesting–(Speaking in Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Patriots, he likes the Patriots.
FATIHA: The Patriots.
OUTHMANE: The Patriots.
SUEÑOS: The Patriots, oh.
OUTHMANE: The Patriots yes. He loved the Patriots.
SUEÑOS: American football. [00:30:35] He liked American football?
OUTHMANE: It's his favorite team, yes. Cause he used to live in _________(??) next to Boston. So Patriots yes.
SPEAKER 4: That makes sense. Cause that's where he got his masters?
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER 4: Johnson Wales?
OUTHMANE: Johnson and Wales, yes.
SPEAKER 4: That's in Massachusetts?
OUTHMANE: [00:30:52] Yes that's Massachusetts. No Rhode Island, is not Massachusetts, it's next to--Rhode Island is small state.
FATIHA: It's the smallest state in the United States, Rhode Island.
OUTHMANE: But it's very close, it's like almost--it's next to Boston.
FATIHA: One hour?
OUTHMANE: One hour to Boston.
FATIHA: One hour drive maybe.
OUTHMANE: So that's why he used to like the Patriots.
FATIHA: More than one hour.
OUTHMANE: [00:31:18] Yeah, something like that, but it's very close, yes, it's very close.
SUEÑOS: So he did his undergraduate degree, his Bachelors in Morocco?
OUTHMANE: In Morocco, yes.
FATIHA: In Morocco, yes. International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
OUTHMANE: International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
FATIHA: I-I-H-E-M
OUTHMANE: International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
FATIHA: International Institute–
OUTHMANE: For Higher Education in Morocco.
SUEÑOS: [00:32:03] Did he call a lot when he first came here? Do you remember?
OUTHMANE: Yes. He always called a lot. He calls at least two, three times a week.
SUEÑOS: What did he think of the states when he first got here? Do you think?
OUTHMANE: He loved it.
FATIHA: He loved the United States.
SUEÑOS: Really?
FATIHA: Oh yes. He fall in love with the United States. He loved the calif-- Florida. He loved Texas when he came here and especially Austin. He loved Austin.
OUTHMANE: Yeah. We went to visit Austin. He said I want to move here. Like one month later, he moved there. And we were crying, me and Brenda. He was living with me here. We were crying, no, don't go, don't go and he left.
FATIHA: And he was telling me all the time on the phone when you come here, this is a very nice place. You will like it. Mom. I will show you the places. They are nice places. There are lakes. There are--whenever you come here, I will take you around and show you things.
SUEÑOS: It makes sense cause he liked kayaking too.
FATIHA: Yes. Yes. Yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes. He has a kayak. He had a kayak in Florida. When he come here, he moved to Austin, he bought kayak again. So he was ready to start a new life.
FATIHA: Yes. [00:33:12] And he used to go to the gym.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
FATIHA: Twice or three, three times a week.
OUTHMANE: Something like that, yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:33:19] Oh wow. So he was very fit?
FATIHA: Yeah.
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes, yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:33:24] Is there, I know we mentioned the kayak, is there like an object that you think would represent his spirit?
OUTHMANE: [00:33:37] Something that represents his spirit? I can find something.
FATIHA: Many things. Many things.
SUEÑOS: Many things? If you can think of something, maybe later, you can take picture.
OUTHMANE: Okay
SUEÑOS: And you send it.
OUTHMANE: Okay. Yes. Yes.
SUEÑOS: I know it's a hard question.
OUTHMANE: It comes with time.
SUEÑOS: Yeah. Yeah, it comes with time. Exactly.
FATIHA: You know he talked to me few hours before the accident, you know. [00:34:05] The last thing he told me is how, where does–
OUTHMANE: Why did you name me Adil?
FATIHA: Where does the name Adil come from? [00:34:17]
OUTHMANE: He never asked questions like this.
FATIHA: I couldn't answer, you know. I said, well, I think about it. Because he called me late. In Morocco, it was 12:00 midnight or some over midnight and he was sitting in the garden and it was shade. He was very nice. It was looking good, and they were preparing to go to see the football match. And have a party. That was that night. In the morning when he left the party, he got shot.
SUEÑOS: Do you know what it means now? Adil?
OUTHMANE: Adil means just, just.
FATIHA: Adil, that means just, the just.
OUTHMANE: To be fair and just.
FATIHA: The person who is just.
OUTHMANE: To be fair and just. Fair. Fairness and justice.
FATIHA: Just.
OUTHMANE: Adil yes. [00:35:03]
FATIHA: That's means the just.
SUEÑOS: Wow. How did you find that name?
FATIHA: Well, it was an Egyptian actor. [00:35:12]
SUEÑOS: An Egyptian actor?
FATIHA: Yes, and I used--I was a fan of that actor. So, Adil Imam.
SUEÑOS: Adil Imam?
FATIHA: Yes. Adil Imam. Egyptian actor.
SUEÑOS: [00:35:28] Like this?
OUTHMANE: Yes, Imam, Imam with M. Imam, yes.
FATIHA: Egyptian actor. [00:35:35]
SPEAKER 4: In Spanish is a Muslim leader, right? An Imam?
FATIHA: Yeah, Imam is the--but here it's a family name.
OUTHMANE: It's like pastor. Imam is pastor. But that's last name. That's his last name. Adil Imam. He's not pastor. He's just a comedian, he's a comedian, yes. [00:35:53] His name Adil, Adil is just and fair, fairness and justice. Just.
SUEÑOS: [00:35:59] Do you think that he represented fairness and justice?
OUTHMANE: Yes, of course. Yes.
FATIHA: Oh, yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes, he did.
FATIHA: [00:36:07] Whenever I was just–(Speaking Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Like arguing with somebody.
FATIHA: Like arguing with somebody and I was telling him, look what, what (??) did to me, what she did to me or what he did to me, he usually tell me, mom just forgive. Just let it go. Please mom let it go and think about better thing. Think about yourself. Think about the family. Think about the children. Think about--just let it go, please mom. And he, he was always taking me to the right [00:36:48] you know? If I was angry with someone, you see what he did to me? What she did to me, oh, please mom, that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. Take it easy. And just forgive. [00:37:04]
SUEÑOS: That's beautiful.
OUTHMANE: He didn't deserve to die, but we cannot go against God's will you know? He created (??)
FATIHA: As the (??) said, he went early.
OUTHMANE: Yes, but so many people goes early like we cannot fight with God's justice. We're--we accepted it. He's just--like what came after that's what made us hurt more.
FATIHA: We know he's in a better place.
OUTHMANE: Because we--yes, because we know he was good guy and we know he never hurt people. So we know he's in better place. And in Islam, if somebody is killed, he goes straight to heaven. If somebody's killed without him starting something or--because my brother didn't do nothing. Like he just, the guy came and shot him. So he's gonna go straight to heaven plus, he's gonna welcome seventy-two people to Heaven.
SUEÑOS: Seventy-two people?
OUTHMANE: Seventy-two people, yes.
SUEÑOS: Why? Where does that come from?
OUTHMANE: It's in Quran. It's in the Quran.
SUEÑOS: Seventy-two people?
OUTHMANE: So when he goes to heaven he's gonna welcome seventy-two people, he's going to say, God. I want all these seventy-two people--and only the people who are killed. People who are killed people, people who drown, people who died with the battle of very, very bad sickness, like cancer, or something like that.
FATIHA: In war
OUTHMANE: People in war
SUEÑOS: Like Covid? Would that--?
FATIHA: No.
OUTHMANE: No, Covid is short term.
FATIHA: The poisonous, people who died poisonous.
OUTHMANE: Poison, or cancer. Or something that is long term. [00:38:33] Something like that makes you suffer. So that or you die, or somebody kills you or in war or you drown in the ocean. So all that you go straight to heaven, because you didn't like--
SUEÑOS: Is there a name for that?
OUTHMANE: Shahid.
FATIHA: [00:38:52] Shahid. He's shadid. [00:38:56] That's the adjective. Shadid.
SUEÑOS: Shahid?
FATIHA: Yes, that's it, shahid. That's it. And the name is Shahada. This is adjective.
OUTHMANE: No, no no (Speaking Arabic) [00:39:05] No, Shahid means he died as shahid.
FATIHA: Okay, shahid. shahid. yes.
OUTHMANE: So Shahid. Shahid means he's gonna go to heaven straight. And shahid usually we don't clean them and (??) with their blood.
FATIHA: [00:39:25] And they don't shave.
OUTHMANE: And that blood turns to good men later [00:39:29] when they go to--So shahid, we don't clean them and they go straight to heaven and they welcome seventy-two people and he says, God I want these seventy-two people to be--and they can be random people. They can be some people who helped him get justice. So you never know, maybe one of them, seriously you never know. So we know he's in heaven and we know he's going to welcome seventy-two people.
SPEAKER 4: It sounds to me like when the role he played in Florida, when people would come over from Morocco and he'd like welcome them into the country and kind of get them oriented. Is that like a similar role that he would play?
OUTHMANE: No. That's a new revision(??) But that's how he was. But this is in religion.
SPEAKER 4: Okay.
OUTHMANE: The religion says that if people die–
FATIHA: Accidentally.
Speaker 4: Okay.
OUTHMANE: Shahid then they go straight to heaven and then they welcome, they welcome like seventy-two people to heaven to say like God, we want, I want this--
FATIHA: Without any punishment. Whatever they did before in their lifetime, they never get punished by God. So they go straight to heaven.
SUEÑOS: [00:40:36] What does justice and fairness mean to you guys? Right now?
OUTHMANE: Life in jail. For the guy who killed him.
SUEÑOS: In jail?
OUTHMANE: Yes. And to give an example to other people to not do it. Because we don't want him to be dead all for no reason. If they want to keep the law of protecting themselves, yes, but don't include outside. Like that should be--outside is outside. Like it's not your land. You have big land, somebody want to pee or use the--and you come and you shoot him or--you understand? People they stopping for so many reasons. Like, when I think about it, you can be me, it can be you. It can be, can be the DA by himself. It can be him in that car, that night, and he will shoot him. You can be anybody. And I told the DA he might be, it can be your son.
FATIHA: I don't think he will shoot him when he comes close to the window and he will see that he's American, not ‘stranger’ between brackets. I don't think it would kill him straight away.
OUTHMANE: [00:41:37] No, I mean, I mean, if they let this go, this law go, then the people will start using it, because there’s gonna be precedent in the court. So anybody who do it after Terry Turner is not gonna go to jail because it would be precedent. So his lawyer will be like, oh there was a case in 2022 or 2021, and the guy was not getting(??) them indicted. That's a precedent so you should let my client go free.
SUEÑOS: They indicted Rittenhouse. What's his name?
SPEAKER 4: Kyle Rittenhouse.
SUEÑOS: Recently.
OUTHMANE: He got away with it, but that's a different one. That's a different, that's people going to him and they try to get his gun. He got scared, but that's different like situation. But my brother didn't have nothing with him and he was in a defensive.
FATIHA: He was in his car, sitting in his car, with the windows rolled up, closed. And he was looking at his phone, lit, the phone was lit on and there was his address on the phone. The address to go back. So [00:42:42] where is the treatment(??) here? Where is the arm here? Where is the--nothing?
OUTHMANE: This is not. Even if, even if he had a gun, let's say he, my brother had a gun. It still is not threatening (??) him because my brother was backing up.
FATIHA: Yes.
OUTHMANE: You understand? Like there's not even a gram of the guy, like the gram of reasons why the guy should feel threatened, there is not. There is not.
FATIHA: And the car was far away from his entrance. [00:43:12] It was really far.
SUEÑOS: [00:43:15] Have you all had any dreams about him? Since it happened?
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes my dad first, he had a dream of him. My brother was in a tree. He was still young, so he was in a tree and my dad says to him, come down, come down and he didn't want to. At a certain point. My dad was like come down or I'll come up to you. And then after my brother died--
FATIHA: You are going to fall, just come down, come down. And he was not responding. So his father told him, come here, come down, or I come up to you, and take you down.
OUTHMANE: So, after that, my dad got COVID and he was hospitalized. He almost died. So we thought that that's what it meant. So he said, come up or I'm going to come up to you. come down or I'll come up to you. So we thought that's what he meant, that he's gonna go up to him.
FATIHA: And I dreamt of him once.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
FATIHA: I was sitting at a table like this, with friends, you know, and that place was only for women [00:44:18] for women. There is like a party there and I was sitting with the other women. And one time I saw Adil coming behind me. He was with the--and he was the age of thirteen years old.
SUEÑOS: [00:44:39] You both have been seeing him as younger version.
OUTHMANE: No. Me no.
FATIHA: Thirteen years old.
OUTHMANE: Me I had a dream of him. He had a fight and I didn't know and when I came I found all in bruises.
FATIHA: And he was just smiling(??) but not talking. He was not talking to me. So I said, he was just smiling(??) to me. That means I am here. Don't, don't be afraid. I'm not lost. I'm here. And he was passing by with two or three friends and he was the age of thirteen years old.
OUTHMANE: And me. I never had this dream but I had it the first time I dream about him it was him fighting and I didn't know when I came, I found him with bruises and everything. And I told him what happened? And he told me like, these two guys beat me and I went to beat them. And that's what's happening, I'm fighting for him. Like, I swear to you. That's what I dreamt about. It's like he needed help for me to fight for him or something like that. And I remember that, exactly. And I usually don't remember the details of dreams, but that one I remembered. [crosstalk]
SPEAKER 4: Do you remember who the two guys were? Or what you remember about those two guys?
OUTHMANE: No. I don't remember. It was just two random guys, and there was no details of them, but I know that he was like somebody, like they jumped him, two people and he came to me and it was like all with bruises and blood and I told him, okay, let's go and we went to beat them. And probably that's what it meant that I had to fight for him.
SUEÑOS: You were defending him. Even though you're the younger brother.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: It was normally him--
OUTHMANE: Or him asking for help. Keep fighting for me brother. You know? You never know. These dreams are weird, but after that, like I didn't dream about him. Like I dream, but it was just like a little bit but not as exact detailed as that one.[00:46:22]
SUEÑOS: He kind of left you that responsibility and--
OUTHMANE: Not only that, it's just my life changed. Because with him, it was only me and him in United States for like more than eight, seven, eight years. So he was everything for me. Like, yes, I have my parents but they're in Morocco so for me, he was everything. Yes we fight as brothers. We fight sometimes but--
FATIHA: But he was always there to try to protect him and to help him, to advise him to--
SUEÑOS: Did he ever defend you from like bullies or something at school?
OUTHMANE: No, we never got bullied.
SUEÑOS: You never got bullied at school? Were you the cool kids then?
OUTHMANE: No, we're not cool kids, but we never let give people the chance to bully us.
SUEÑOS: No.
OUTHMANE: Yes, we never--I used to be bad. Not my brother. But me, I used to fight a lot.
SUEÑOS: Really?
OUTHMANE: Yeah. My brother used to fight but with the--
SUEÑOS: With words.
OUTHMANE: No, not with the--he doesn't talk. [00:47:16] He doesn't talk. If there is something he goes fight, but (??) but after that–
FATIHA: (Speaking Arabic)
OUTHMANE: But me, I used to bring a lot of problems to the house. [00:47:27] But he, no. And everything was–like sometimes we do things together me and him, but he gets [00:47:31] (??) me at the end and I get punished by my dad. So I always get that, get his part and my part
(laughter)
SUEÑOS: That's your role. [00:47:40]
OUTHMANE: Yes, but [00:47:44] He was a good guy. He was great guy. He didn't deserve to die. He didn't deserve to die. Trust me. And I'm sure he didn't do nothing wrong to that guy. He didn't.
FATIHA: I'm sure he would have tell him, Hi, sir. Good morning, sir, or good evening, sir. I'm sure of this.
OUTHMANE: But he was like this. So probably he was begging, please don't shoot or something because if he shoot him and my brother's hand was there, the bullet is so fast like by the time he's gonna be like that, he's gonna already--but the bullet went through his hand so it means he had his hand like this already. So he was begging.
FATIHA: He pointed the gun before.
SUEÑOS: [00:48:18] He probably, he saw him coming, and then he--
OUTHMANE: No he saw him doing like that and my brother did like that
FATIHA: He knocked with the gun? He knocked at the [00:48:27]
OUTHMANE: There's two little chips in the–that shows that he tried to break the window and it didn't break. [00:48:33] My brother did like that and he shot him. So, it was an execution. [00:48:40] I wish I could do that to him. But I can I cannot leave this woman alone. But at certain point I was thinking about it because there is no justice. There was no--all they tell me all this guy--even though I'm not the type who do that at all. Like, I never owned a gun. I don't, I don't have a gun. I don't believe in the gun. And I don't believe in people would hurt me for us not hurting them. But at a certain point, I was thinking about it. I was like the heck? Are they going to let him go just like that? And nothing's gonna happen? So I was gonna go do it and do me after him. But I couldn't. Like it was her who stopped me. Like not, she didn't tell me stop or something. Just in my mind. It came to my mind. Me, I'm the guy who never had this kind of thoughts in my mind. Go to hurt somebody. But you do that to very good people, very good person. That's not acceptable. If it was me I would hit him with the car or something, but my brother is too good. You understand? Like for me I would not be, I would be afraid but I don't think that the same outcome would have happened. Like me, I would fight back or I would hit you with the car or go inside with the car, go inside his house. Like, I don't care. Or accelerate. Because the guy's coming to shoot me. But my brother never move. Never, he never did something.
SUEÑOS: He expected the best from people.
OUTHMANE: Exactly. He expected the guy's gonna talk to him or something like that. That's why he stopped. Because the guy doesn't have enough time to, [00:50:01] the guy doesn't have enough time to reach him from the, from his door to where my brother was parked. It's too far. [00:50:09] Yes.
SPEAKER 4: It's hard when you can't depend on the system to give you justice and have to try to think well how can I make justice happen?
OUTHMANE: It's hard. It can change you as a person. It can change you. Like it makes you so angry to a point where you can change as a person. And that's the result when you see black people being mad in the streets. That's the result of so many years of discrimination, of hate, of racism. That's why you see black people they're very, very, very angry. And I don't blame them, especially after what happened to my brother. I don't blame them now. Like I'm with them. Because you, you live in--your brother gets killed by cop, your father gets killed by somebody else and the police not bringing you justice, your cousin or something, and then things keep happening over the years, especially before they have separate bathrooms, Black people and white people. They have better universities and better days. Of course, people will grow with hate. Like, just me, look at me. I never had problem with the police. I never done anything wrong in my life. Nothing. Nothing. And I had this thought came to my mind at certain point. So, you should not blame people if they get--if they're angry about the society.
FATIHA: He showed us whether--he showed us his criminal record. Nothing.
SPEAKER 4: Terry Turner?
FATIHA: Yes. No, Adil. The other one is--
OUTHMANE: He had the burglary. He was a burglar.
FATIHA: He was a burglar
SUEÑOS: What?
SPEAKER 4: Terry was a burglar?
FATIHA: Yes.
OUTHMANE: He was arrested for burglary and convicted. [00:51:37]
SPEAKER 4: How long ago?
OUTHMANE: Like seven years.
SPEAKER 4: Seven years ago?
OUTHMANE: [00:51:39] In the seven years.
FATIHA: A long time ago
OUTHMANE: But people never change.
SUEÑOS: [00:51:44] But still, they should have seen that in--they should have put his should put his bail at a higher amount.
OUTHMANE: Yes they've seen it, they know it. They put in the presentation. They know it. [00:51:52] And the guy's very confrontational, the guy's very racist. And we told the DA go (??)
FATIHA: They said he was co-parenting. [00:52:01] That's why they didn’t arrest him, and that's why--
SPEAKER 4: Not a threat to the community.
FATIHA: Uh-huh. He has many guns at home. He shot--he used one gun. He came to someone and he doesn't present any threat to the community.
SPEAKER 4: And they sent it in a press release to let everyone know.
SUEÑOS: They sent it in the press release?
SPEAKER 4: The Sheriff's Office did. And didn't even name Terry Turner. They just said--
FATIHA: Yes.
SPEAKER 4: They declined to name him and just said he's cooperative. We don't view him as a threat to the community.
SUEÑOS: And that was after the media?
SPEAKER 4: No right after the murder explaining why they weren't going to arrest him after he'd just killed Adil. [00:52:37]
OUTHMANE: They're very racist people. The cops. Like I've seen them in their eyes and they're very racist. Very racist people.
FATIHA: What do the community they have think?
SPEAKER 4: Of the police?
FATIHA: Yes.
SPEAKER 4: I think most people are horrified. I find very few people that are defending the police. I think the police are just not ever accustomed to people speaking out and denouncing them. And so I think this is one of the first times where all of a sudden there's a huge spotlight on them. They're like, oh gosh, we can't get away with what we've gotten away with for decades. And I think it's--and that's why like two different people have come up and like. Hey, (??) we want to tell you about this other thing about the district attorney or about the district judge.
OUTHMANE: I saw the guy with district attorney with the judge and stuff like that, he was the grand jury judge, jury.
SPEAKER 4: Yeah, this guy he was like he was formerly a justice of the peace and he was talking (??)
OUTHMANE: That's why I said he should go to jail. Both of them. The guy who--
SPEAKER 4: Those are serious allegations
OUTHMANE: That's just by itself. Seriously. And if I told you, if somebody--if a black person did it or a Democrat did it, they are so weak--look now the--
FATIHA: They present the document not signed–
OUTHMANE: It was forged, it was forged. He signed it, it was forged. [00:53:38]
FATIHA: They signed it in the place on the name--
OUTHMANE: Yes it was forged. It was forgery.
SPEAKER 4: It was a judge who came forward to announce all of that so--
OUTHMANE: And Cuomo, Cuomo, Cuomo (??), Cuomo from New York (??) for just for harassment and he might go to jail for it and look these people what they're doing and nobody's talking to them. Like it's so much, it's so much.
FATIHA: Did you meet any gun owner?
SPEAKER 4: [00:54:02] Yeah. I have some friends--
OUTHMANE: What would they think?
SPEAKER 4: Yeah. I mean, I think that, yeah, that this is a case in which, I mean, they're kind of liberals and leftists but I think, yeah, they agree that this is dangerous. You know, that guns aren't meant to be used in this sort of situation. And I know that I think Rebecca's talked to more gun owner organizations, like she talked to that one gun owner organization and let them know that this is a threat to their rights. You know, that if you know, so--that is very interesting about like, whose paying Bloomquist if Terry Turner doesn't have the money. I mean, that's a great point.
OUTHMANE: I'm telling you who? Who exactly? It's either for PR [00:54:36] for public relations [00:54:39] he's doing for public--but this case is very hard for PR. You know, he might lose it. So somebody's paying him. Because he's a high-profile attorney and he cannot afford it. Somebody's paying for him, for sure.
SPEAKER 4: I guess there's no way to find out who, unless–it's not public information.
OUTHMANE: No. No, there's no way. No.
SPEAKER 4: [00:54:59] I would guess the NRA,
FATIHA: Please help yourself.
(crosstalk)
(side talk)
FATIHA: [00:55:46] I can't understand, many times he speaks so fast for me so I can't understand what he's saying.
SUEÑOS: Oh really? Me too.
FATIHA: And the other persons, when they speak little bit less slowly, so I can understand. But show him I have (??).
SUEÑOS: Oh my gosh tell him.
FATIHA: I will.
SUEÑOS: Tell him so he knows. Because he's always talking to me--
FATIHA: so fast.
SUEÑOS: Especially when he's in the car because I can't read his lips.
FATIHA: uh huh. That makes it more difficult.
SUEÑOS: And then later he'll be like, oh remember we have to do this today? And I'm like no. And he's like yeah I told you yesterday, and I'm like--but I didn't understand. That's funny. Peek-a-boo.
OUTHMANE: She hates us today because she stayed there all day. Normally she stays outside and she play, she fly anywhere she wants.
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
OUTHMANE: Yeah but today--
SUEÑOS: She bites women [00:56:44].
OUTHMANE: She bites women.
SUEÑOS: She bites women?
FATIHA: Yes, only women. Yes, but he, she never bite him. Me and Brenda, all the time.
SUEÑOS: No!
OUTHMANE: She's jealous.
SUEÑOS: She's jealous.
OUTHMANE: She's jealous. [00:57:00]
FATIHA: I don't know what's happened to her.
SUEÑOS: No, you know, birds are actually jealous creatures. I read somewhere that yeah, they actually--because they mate for life for the most part and they, they're capable of having jealousy.
FATIHA: Oh, maybe that's what--
SUEÑOS: That doesn't make it right. What you think I'm jealous?
FATIHA: [00:57:20] Brenda said, she said that she will keep her in the cage for the whole month.
OUTHMANE: What? What do you want?
SUEÑOS: No way!
OUTHMANE: What do you want?
SUEÑOS: Can I take a picture of you guys? [00:57:34]
OUTHMANE: What? You want to go eat? [00:57:38] I think she wants to go. Go now, go.
SPEAKER 4: [00:57:55] Did you tell them what you want to do with interviews? Ultimately babe?
SUEÑOS: [00:57:59] No, I guess I didn't.
OUTHMANE: [00:58:04] And if you have any questions that comes to your mind--
[END OF TAPE 1]
JUANIA SUEÑOS: [00:00:04] Okay, perfect so as an immigrant myself, I came here with a lot of big dreams. And so one of my questions is, why did you come to the United States?
OUTHMANE DGHOUGHI: [00:00:17] I came to the United States because–first it was, that's what we studied. For example, the accounting in Morocco is a different system than in United States. So when I went to an American school in Morocco, we [Adil, Othman’s brother & him] studied American accounting and American economics. And so that’s one one part of it, and second part, it was my dream to come to the United States. I hoped it would be like a dream land where everybody's equal, where, [00:00:49] where everybody has rights, where everything is good. Like law wise, the law is applied in a in a very good manner. [00:00:59] But everything changed now.
FATIHA DGHOUGHI: And the freedom [00:01:02]
OUTHMANE: The way I used to think United States is, it's not it it’s, it's not.
SUEÑOS: What do you see now?
OUTHMANE: Like I see danger. I see danger. I see, I see hate. I see inequality. I see discrimination. I see--
FATIHA: Corruption.
OUTHMANE: Corruption. I see [00:01:27] racism.
SUEÑOS: So are you shocked? Are you shocked from this?
OUTHMANE: Yes of course I am shocked. Yes, sometimes now I'm thinking to go back to Morocco. Like, it came to my mind. Before I never had in my mind to go back to Morocco because I already started my life here. But now, I am afraid. I am, as I told you like, I cannot go to the streets now, and park in somebody's driveway or just near to his house. I'm afraid. So, I'm afraid from the police now if they want to retaliate because what I did. So I'm just afraid. And also I'm– [00:01:58] like everything that I thought, hoped the United States would be, it is not. Especially after this, what happened to my brother. Like I could see deep inside the system and it's not, it's not, it's not okay. There's a lot of gaps. There's a lot of things that gives the right to people with higher power. Give them the right to play with anything they want. So for example, that the, [00:02:28] the grand jury, it should be very, very secret (??). And so [00:02:35] like as I said, like there's a lot of things that changing my mind, especially racism, hate and discrimination. And, you know, they think that we are not the same. We are not made of the same thing. So, I never chose to be born white, or gray, or brown or red or yellow. I was born this way. So if they have some problem, they should have it with God. Not me. It's God who created us. So if they want to, if they want to criticize somebody then they can talk to God and ask him why he created us. It's not our problem. So that's all. That's all I can say about that.
SUEÑOS: How do you think that Adil saw the United States?
OUTHMANE: He saw it same as me. We had the same thinking about United States. Same thought. [00:03:20] he was hoping to have children, to have family, better job, [00:03:26] easier life, which is not. It's harder in here. It's harder. It's more harder to live in the United States than in Morocco.
SUEÑOS: [00:03:35] In what ways do you mean?
OUTHMANE: You know, you are in danger twenty-four hours, like you never know with these laws of guns, people can carry their guns with them and there is no accountability for people use guns. Of course, it's hard. Like, you have to think about your future, you have to think about being safe, staying alive first. And so I think it's very hard, the United States now. It is very hard. It's not what I thought. And my brother too, he used to see it as dream place. A lot of opportunities. But not now.
SUEÑOS: [00:04:17] And just so you know at any point we can take breaks, drink water and anything like that.
OUTHMANE: No it's okay, take your time, take your time.
SUEÑOS: [00:04:25] So are there migrants in your country of origin, in Morocco? Are there immigrants that come there from other places?
OUTHMANE: In my country? Yes. It's the--Morocco is the leading country in Africa. So all African people, they are moving to Morocco and also Spanish people because there is–Spain we all know (??) is very bad. So people from Spain, they're moving to Morocco, people from France, they're moving to Morocco, Americans are moving to Morocco. I had a friend of mine, he's a YouTuber, he was born and raised in Texas, American, white. And I took him with me to Morocco. Now he moved there. He lives next to my house. And I made sure he rent a good place and I made sure he has good friends. And I created a good environment for him. Now he's living it. Just like six months now, he moved there.
SUEÑOS: Oh, wow. Why do you think so many people are coming there?
OUTHMANE: It's because we're lovely people. We're very welcoming. Something that is ours is never ours. Like we share a lot. We're very [00:05:28] welcoming, like we welcome people. [00:05:31] We are happy when we see other people happy. So I think that's--and then it's very secure. We're not like–it's very rare that there is crimes in Morocco. Very rare.
SUEÑOS: Do you think there is racism and discrimination there?
OUTHMANE: No, I don't think so.
SUEÑOS: Against immigrants?
OUTHMANE: No, I don't think so. Because there's African people with like darker colors and they give them jobs and so--and they're like they're part of our society.
SUEÑOS: There's no like rhetoric like there is here of--
OUTHMANE: No
SUEÑOS: You know, these are bad people?
OUTHMANE: No. No. If there is something done people keep it in, it's their own opinion. So people keep it in, for their own. But they never do something to hurt these people.
FATIHA: [00:06:13] I don't know whether you like it too sweet? You can drink some more with sugar.
SPEAKER 4: I like it with no sugar.
FATIHA: With no sugar?
SPEAKER 4: Well, if you tell me I need sugar then I'll put sugar but--
SUEÑOS: If you tell me--
OUTHMANE: She already put sugar
FATIHA: I put poquito
SPEAKER 4: Okay cool. poquito is perfect.
SUEÑOS: Those are really pretty glasses.
FATIHA: Thank you. [00:06:36]
OUTHMANE: You don't want?
FATIHA: I will ask Brenda. Take that.
OUTHMANE: Oh, for Brenda. When Shahir and Rebecca come here, they finish the whole thing, they loved it. And when the police come to my house, they loved it.
SUEÑOS: This is Moroccan tea?
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: What is it called? It's pretty.
OUTHMANE: It's black tea or green tea, I guess, with mint. But it's cooked the Moroccan way.
SUEÑOS: Oh the Moroccan way.
OUTHMANE: Yes be careful it's very hot.
SPEAKER 4: It’s fantastic. Very tasty.
SUEÑOS: You already tried it?
SPEAKER 4: A little bit.
OUTHMANE: Be careful. It's very hot. The way we do it is we do like [slurping] [00:07:22] to not to be too hot. [00:07:26]
SPEAKER 4: I couldn't hear you baby.
SUEÑOS: Mmm. That's really good.
SPEAKER 4: He showed us how to
(slurping) [00:07:33]
OUTHMANE: But yeah, I knew which way, I burned my tongue already.
SUEÑOS: It kind of reminds me of, what did I make lately? That my uncle sent?
SPEAKER 4: Oh yeah, I forget what it's called.
SUEÑOS: Yerbaniz
OUTHMANE: Lebanese It's very close to Lebanese tea. But this is Moroccan.
SPEAKER 4: Yerbaniz, it's a Spanish word.
OUTHMANE: Oh Yerbaniz. I thought it was Lebanese.
SPEAKER 4: Oh yerba like herb and then–
SUEÑOS: And then aniz.
SPEAKER 4: Aniz, oh ok.
OUTHMANE: Aniz? That's mint. That's almost mint, aniz is. It's from the same DNA.
SUEÑOS: Yeah, it's really yummy. I have this tea, it only grows in Zacatecas, it's like a wildflower. But it's a kind of Marigold. You know what marigolds are?
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes. Yes. We use some flowers in it sometimes, but the typical way is mint. Mint water, the tea and sugar. But it just the way you make it, you see, it's very dark. So yes.
SPEAKER 4: It's delicious.
OUTHMANE: She take it? [00:08:32]
SUEÑOS: [00:08:35] Are you gonna come sit here?
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes, she's coming. Yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:08:40] Thank you for the tea. This is really yummy.
FATIHA: You're welcome. [00:08:43]
OUTHMANE: I'm not sure, Fatiha [00:08:47] heard kind of how Texas After Violence operates as far as editing and--
SUEÑOS: Oh, yeah, so any any comments or anything that you make we can stop at any moment and drink water or you know, take a break or you can decline to answer anything. And then also, that was what was in the paperwork that Othman signed. And then also the kinds of interviews that I wanted to do for their project is more of seeing Adil as the person that he was rather than seeing him as the tragedy that happened to him, or a number or a statistic. And so I kind of want to create a profile of the person that he was. So I got the music that he liked, the food that he liked. And so that sort of information is probably what I would ask you. Yeah, so in the individual, I think it was Sarah? That said that he liked Janis Joplin.
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes. Yes. He likes also, he likes the same as me, like Guns and Roses [00:09:57]. Old rock and roll too. Like eighties nineties music and he also liked Moroccan rap. He listened to a lot of Moroccan rap, but not Spanish. No no reggaeton.
SUEÑOS: No reggaeton (laughs).
OUTHMANE: [00:10:10] No. Maybe pop, little bit of pop music, but old ones and [00:10:17] as I said, Nirvana, [00:10:20] Guns, N Roses, Metallica, [00:10:24] Eric Clapton, Jack Johnson, if you know Jack Johnson, so it's just like just smooth, smooth, rock and roll. Not the heavy one.
SUEÑOS: Oh, wow.
OUTHMANE: Like, I don't know what you call it. Yeah that's the type of music he liked.
FATIHA: [00:10:39] he used to cook. He was a good cook.
OUTHMANE: Italian.
FATIHA: Italian food.
OUTHMANE: He was good at making pizzas and–
SUEÑOS: Chicken piccata, right? Chicken piccata?
OUTHMANE: Yes. yes. and pizzas and also [00:10:53] Italian salads and pasta. He was good at this.
SUEÑOS: And how did he know how to cook this?
OUTHMANE: He was working Italian restaurants.
FATIHA: When I went to his place he used to cook Italian for me all the time.
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
FATIHA: Yes
SUEÑOS: [00:11:08] What was your favorite thing that he made?
FATIHA: Oh, he made pasta and salad, that special salad that he used to make. [00:11:17] And it was good.
SUEÑOS: Did he make the pasta from scratch with a little--
OUTHMANE: Yes with the cheese, everything from scratch, yes.
SUEÑOS: Oh no way. Wow. I think someone-, I can't remember who described it to me this way. But someone said that when he cooked Italian food, it was like an art because he was so delicate.
OUTHMANE: Yes, he'd take time and yes, I think it's--you only cook it when you have passion.
FATIHA: With love, passion with love. [00:11:47] All what he did he did with passion and love, and he was very careful.
OUTHMANE: He liked fishing.
FATIHA: He was very helpful. He was [00:12:00] caring for people, for his brothers, for his neighbors, for the family, the big family, and the little family. He was all the time, leading his brother and sister, the ones who were still in Morocco.[00:12:18] So he was always asking them and following their current, their studies and asking them and helping them choose in taking the, the right things for them.
OUTHMANE: He loves animals like me.
FATIHA: He loves animals
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
OUTHMANE: He loves animals. Yes. [00:12:34] peekaboo (??), she would bite anybody but him, no. Me, she would bite me, but the first time she met him, she doesn't bite him.
SUEÑOS: Really?
OUTHMANE: And now the one that–the dog that bites, now if we come and ask him where is Adil? He'll be looking for him. He knows his name.
FATIHA: He starts looking, he starts going and looking for him everywhere.
OUTHMANE: He would go to his room and check if he's there. If not, he'll be next (??), the dog waiting for him to come. [00:12:58] So he loved animal. He loved fishing, doing outdoor kayaking.
SUEÑOS: He liked kayaking?
OUTHMANE: Yes he liked kayaking.
FATIHA: Camping.
OUTHMANE: Camping
FATIHA: He liked camping.
OUTHMANE: He loved outdoor. Everything that has to do with outdoor, he loved it. He loved playing soccer, tennis too, he plays it with me, tennis. Swimming, he loved swimming so--
FATIHA: When he died and there was the [00:13:24]
OUTHMANE: Autopsy? [00:13:31]
FATIHA: (Speaking in Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Oh funeral.
FATIHA: The funeral. Yeah. The funeral. And people were coming and presenting condolences and everything. And there was a little boy. Let's say, let's say nine years old or something or ten years old and he didn't know me. So, he came to the house and he knocked at the door. I want to see auntie. Auntie Haja (??), Auntie Fatiha. And I went to him I said, yes? He said, I came to present my condolences for Adil. He said--I asked him, do you know him? How do you know? He said yes, I know him. How do you know him? He said I know him because all the time that I met– that when he went to Morocco and he met him around, he gave--he used to give me some money and then, and he was crying and crying the little boy, and he used to give me some money. That's why I came to present my condolences because I’m really sad for him.
OUTHMANE: Another friend of ours, he told me that I had to go to the hospital and I didn't have money and I told your brother, but I didn't tell him to give me money. I just told him I had to go and my brother sent him money to, to go to the hospital.
FATIHA: Even he had, he didn't have extra money.
OUTHMANE: He didn't have so much money, he still helped people.
FATIHA: But the money, the little money he had, he used to help people with, whenever they are in need.
SUEÑOS: One of his friends, I think maybe one of his roommates? [00:14:56] told me that he let him borrow the car.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: And that he was really worried, not Adil, but the friend was really worried and he said, are you sure?
OUTHMANE: Yes. My brother told him, yes.
SUEÑOS: Cause I'm not on the insurance. [00:15:07] and what did he say? What did he say?
OUTHMANE: He was like no you--just if–we have insurance if you want to hit the wall, hit the wall, don't worry. Just be comfortable.
SUEÑOS: [00:15:15] Like yeah, just be comfortable driving the car. Don't be scared.
FATIHA: And he used to help all the friends who--the Moroccan who came here in the United States. They came for the first time. So he was to, he used to bring them to his home and stay there for a little while till--and help them find a job or find a car and settled still, till they go, [00:15:41] they can go out by themselves you know?
SUEÑOS: How long had he been in the states?
OUTHMANE: [00:15:47] Nine years.
FATIHA: Adil?
OUTHMANE: Nine years.
FATIHA: Nine years maybe.
SUEÑOS: [00:15:53] So after he graduated, he wanted to continue living here.
FATIHA: Yes. Yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes. Nine years.
FATIHA: He is an American citizen.
SUEÑOS: Oh, he's an American citizen.
OUTHMANE: He just became like two years ago, a year and a half ago, he became citizen.
SUEÑOS: [00:16:08] Are you an American citizen?
OUTHMANE: No, I'm a permanent resident. [00:16:12] But I can apply for the passport, like maybe one year, less than in one year. And I can apply for the passport.
SUEÑOS: In less than one year?
OUTHMANE: Less than one year, yes.
SUEÑOS: So you've had it for almost five years?
OUTHMANE: No, no, it's because I was divorced. So I applied for different things. And I only, I only need to wait three years after the green card. Not five years.
SUEÑOS: Oh really? That's good.
OUTHMANE: Mmhmm. Because I applied for something special and [00:16:42] I only need to wait three years–
FATIHA: Not two?
OUTHMANE: No, three. And you can apply three months before.
SUEÑOS: So did you and Adil come with a student visa?
OUTHMANE: Yes. We both come with student visas.
SUEÑOS: Are they hard to come by? Are they hard to get?
OUTHMANE: Yes, you need to show proof of income, like that your parents has money to pay for your school and it's very hard. It is very hard.
FATIHA: I had to sell some lands to pay for their education. Lands that I inherited. [00:17:17] So it costed a lot, a lot, a lot of money. And now he's gone. No land. No Adil.
OUTHMANE: [00:17:26] It's okay. It's okay. It’s okay. Don't cry. Don't cry.
SUEÑOS: [00:17:42] It's okay if you cry, I don't mind. [00:17:45] I'm really sorry about all of that. That's really scary. When the, the crazy man shot I don't know, twenty-six people at Walmart and they were all Hispanic. I don't know. It's turning into a scary country here.
OUTHMANE: Yes. especially after Trump, especially after Trump. And he's now, now he is lying about every single thing. He lies and Republicans are still following his lies. I don't know where this is going. Who knows that he's a product of Russia. Sometimes I really think about it. Maybe it's Russia. They are bullying him about something. They have something against him and they like oh, if you don't do this, maybe we'll show the American public and he does whatever Putin wants. [00:18:28] So so Russia now if they want to fight United States, they don't have to come here with weapons. They can just put one person who creates a civil war and the way it's going now, I think there's gonna be civil war coming very soon. Divided.
FATIHA: Now I think there more and more states that with guns are allowed?
OUTHMANE: No, no, no. It not more states are allowed, it's the same. The wild west. But it's just now, there's more hate. There is now more and more people are divided. Before it was okay, especially when Obama was there, they were okay. People were liking each other, but now he created division. Trump.
FATIHA: [00:19:08] In Morocco I'm used to do jogging, go jogging twice or three times a week, and I came here and I went out. I still (??) I got ready and then I was scared. I did it once and that's it. So I was walking and every time I was just watching like this someone will come out and to shoot, just like this. Say that I'm on his driveway or something. That;s really scary.
OUTHMANE: [00:19:36] And there's a lot of mental issues. People have so much mental issues and they need to think about what causing this because it's more than all the countries.
SUEÑOS: Yeah.
OUTHMANE: It's too much. It's either the stress of life, or it's either--I don't know what is it, but people are, they have mental issues a lot. I'm sure that guy has mental issues too because who's gonna come and shoot somebody for no reason.
SUEÑOS: For no reason.
OUTHMANE: I'm sure he has like some mental issues that can be included as hate too, because that's a mental problem.
SUEÑOS: It's like the only country really where people just kind of--
OUTHMANE: Yes, there is crazy--there is something going on. Like people come and shoot people like as you said in Walmart for no reason. What is that? That doesn't happen anywhere else. Why it's not happening in France? Why it's not happening in Europe? It's not happening at all. Like not even one time.
SUEÑOS: You think it's also, I think maybe it's individualism?
OUTHMANE: I think it's how the law is designed. Is how the law is giving people too much freedom to do stuff, like too much freedom. And that's what happens when you give people too much freedom. When you allow them to carry a gun with them for the, for the sake of protecting themselves. I don't think that's a good idea.
SUEÑOS: This is really yummy. Thank you. And the tea.
FATIHA: You're welcome.
OUTHMANE: I think it's just, it's just the law giving them too much freedom because in France and stuff like that, they don't have all this much, all this freedom. Then here is just I think it's too much. Especially trespassing. Somebody trespass you shoot him. What the heck is this? Like, oh, yes, you can defend yourself. But if you break the lock of your house, and he's getting inside or something like that. Yes, then I agree.
FATIHA: Or near and close to your house okay. You feel a afraid and then-- .
OUTHMANE: But somebody outside, call the cops. If he does what his mind tells him, [00:21:35] Then I will do what my mind tells me and Jordan(??) will do the same and you will do the same, and nobody will be alive in this world. If we all think like Terry Turner then nobody will stay alive. So that's what I said is like, they're giving them too much freedom. It's like they are encouraging them. The law is encouraging people to use lethal force, or to kill people or to like–if they didn't allow rifles, like why are you going to allow people to have riffles, why? This is not for protection, a gun is enough for protection. So rifle, when you allow somebody with a rifle then he goes and he shoots twenty-seven people, fourty, fifty people. So the question is, is that for protection or not? No, rifle is not for protection. That's for war. That's to kill people. It's not to protect yourself. So I think it's just, it's the law. The way it's designed is encouraging people to do more things and, and the lack of accountability too. Like Trump did so many things and he's not going to jail. So, it starts from the top to the bottom, and you can see that the guy who shot my brother he didn't get arrested for eleven days. And if I did that, then I would be arrested the same day. I wouldn't–they wouldn't even give me a bond. They wouldn't even give me a bond. Especially me, a Muslim. They would be like, oh, he's a terrorist. So it's only terrorist when a Muslim guy does it, but when a person does it, a white person does it, oh, he's mentally ill.
FATIHA: Or sensitive(??)
OUTHMANE: He's mentally ill. No, it's mentally ill. But when a Muslim does it oh it's terrorism. But Terrorism is terror, you make people afraid. That doesn't have anything to do with religion. So people who shoots twenty-seven people in Walmart, that's terrorism too. But I bet, I bet you you would never hear people saying it.
SUEÑOS: No. Abbott actually, the Texan governor, he refused to come out and publicly say that it was terrorism.
OUTHMANE: No he wouldn't. He would be like he's mentally ill or he's just an individual that did that, and it's wrong. And blah, blah, blah. And that's it. But they would never call it terrorism. Now we start like paying attention to these things, United States is very racist.
SUEÑOS: What do you think is going to happen to the other immigrants that are here like you and me and my brother?
OUTHMANE: Well, I think it's–everything depends on the government and on Democrats if they want to change things. But I don't think this, this country is safe for immigrants anymore.
FATIHA: No, as long as the lobby for guns exists–
OUTHMANE: Yes but that's what controls and influences (??)
FATIHA: It is getting more and more power. All these things will--
OUTHMANE: Now Terry Turner's lawyer is very expensive. Terry Turner doesn't have money. So, who's paying for it? [00:24:24] There's only one option is the gun–
FATIHA: Owners.
OUTHMANE: The gun organizations. The program organizations they're the one who's paying them. And if he win the case, I'm sure he would be writing books. [00:24:36] So you understand? Like people from their same, the same thing, that did the same as him, they'll be writing books showing off. Hey, look what I did and I killed and I got away with it and because we need to protect ourselves and blah, blah blah. He will be writing books. Trust me. If he wins the case. [00:24:55] And I'm sure. And you see how much [00:24:59] arrogant they became, especially those white people, they're crazy. I'm not, I'm not generalizing because I never see people different from their skin, but I'm talking about white people mentality. Not, not the white people like color, color wise.
SUEÑOS: Good note.
OUTHMANE: He understands.
SUEÑOS: He understands though because--
OUTHMANE: He knows me.
FATIHA: We would never say that [00:25:22] if we didn't see these things happening. You know?
OUTHMANE: But I'm talking about this mentality? Like redneck mentality–
FATIHA: The racists.
OUTHMANE: The proud boys, you know, the proud boys, like the white supremacists.
SUEÑOS: They've pit them all against us.
FATIHA: Oh yes.
OUTHMANE: That's all, it's all about culture, it's all about--and that's what the police did. Terry Turner is nobody, but they have him--in my opinion if he's nobody and they don't know each other, I think they're trying to protect the culture, the culture of guns. That's why they did this.
FATIHA: And the strangers–
OUTHMANE: No, it's (??)
FATIHA: No, I'm just saying something else. The strangers who come to United States and live to United States, most of them are peaceful. Most of them are peaceful. [00:26:13] They're just liking their way, doing their business, [00:26:19] except if someone trespass his, then (??)
OUTHMANE: [00:26:25] Because the government, the government makes so (??) Like you know what we go through. We go through a lot to get to the immigration.
SUEÑOS: [00:26:30] Why would we want to give that up?
OUTHMANE: And they make us suffer to get the green card or whatever they need to make sure that we are good person and they don't give us the green card until they are sure we are good people. So it's not us the problem. It's people of this country that are the problem. Not generalizing, but there's some--I'm talking about certain culture that is very dangerous in the United States. This, the people who think, I am white, I have the the privilege of doing everything I can.
FATIHA: More tea?
SUEÑOS: You liked it. It's good.
FATIHA: Help yourself. Please.
SUEÑOS: [00:27:08] Did Adil have a team?
FATIHA: It's not that sweet.
SUEÑOS: No it's not very sweet. It's really good. Thank you.
OUTHMANE: You just don't know where this country is going. Seriously, I really don't know. But it's getting--well before it was changing to this way [00:27:30] but now it's accelerating, speeding. Especially with what's going on with Trump. It's speeding. The other day he was like, oh they're trying to get me to jail. So if they, if they get me to jail or something, I want you to go and protest in this and this. That's his way of telling them bring your guns and do civil war. Like it was very clear he wants civil war. And if he's going down, he better have organized that going down. And what makes him choose, choose problems, what makes him choose something else than his country? You understand? Like, he knows civil war is not good for his country. He knows that it's not gonna be good. He has a lot of money that he's gonna lose if the civil war comes, but he's still ignoring that. So, this is another power that’s making him do that. So, I don't know there's a lot of division now. A lot of racism, a lot of hate, lot of, I don't know. It's going somewhere where--
FATIHA: Well let's come to Adil here. Have you any other questions?
SUEÑOS: [00:28:35] I was going to ask what his soccer team was? Did he like your team?
OUTHMANE: Oh, Wydad, Wydad Athletic.
SUEÑOS: Can you spell that for me?
OUTHMANE: Wydad Athletic, Wydad is like this--
FATIHA: [00:28:51] W-Y
SUEÑOS: [00:28:53] So the family was split there because the two sons they go for the Wydad and then you go for the other one?
FATIHA: No, I'm the only one in the family who is Raja.
SUEÑOS: Why?
FATIHA: My husband, Asil, Basma (??), my daughter, and the two brothers, all of them are Wydad. And me I'm Raja.
SUEÑOS: Why are you Raja?
OUTHMANE: To be against us.
FATIHA: Just to be against the world (laughs)
OUTHMANE: Wydad Athletic Casablanca.
FATIHA: And the abbreviation is WAC, WAC.
SUEÑOS: [00:29:29] Yeah, that's, that's the word that you said at the restaurant is WAC. Okay. And then yours?
FATIHA: Mine is Raja Athletic Club.
SUEÑOS: So I can say that this is your team just to go against the boys.
SPEAKER 4: Did you like Raja since you were young?
FATIHA: No
SPEAKER 4: Only because of the family?
FATIHA: I hated football. [00:29:52] Until I got married, I had children. They started loving Wydad. So I said, I don't. Now, I am a fan, a real fan of Raja and I've defended Raja with all my (laughs)--- [00:30:09] Raja Athletic Club. [00:30:12] So, R-C-A.
SUEÑOS: [00:30:19] Thank you.
FATIHA: [00:30:23] And I don't know whether it's interesting–(Speaking in Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Patriots, he likes the Patriots.
FATIHA: The Patriots.
OUTHMANE: The Patriots.
SUEÑOS: The Patriots, oh.
OUTHMANE: The Patriots yes. He loved the Patriots.
SUEÑOS: American football. [00:30:35] He liked American football?
OUTHMANE: It's his favorite team, yes. Cause he used to live in _________(??) next to Boston. So Patriots yes.
SPEAKER 4: That makes sense. Cause that's where he got his masters?
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER 4: Johnson Wales?
OUTHMANE: Johnson and Wales, yes.
SPEAKER 4: That's in Massachusetts?
OUTHMANE: [00:30:52] Yes that's Massachusetts. No Rhode Island, is not Massachusetts, it's next to--Rhode Island is small state.
FATIHA: It's the smallest state in the United States, Rhode Island.
OUTHMANE: But it's very close, it's like almost--it's next to Boston.
FATIHA: One hour?
OUTHMANE: One hour to Boston.
FATIHA: One hour drive maybe.
OUTHMANE: So that's why he used to like the Patriots.
FATIHA: More than one hour.
OUTHMANE: [00:31:18] Yeah, something like that, but it's very close, yes, it's very close.
SUEÑOS: So he did his undergraduate degree, his Bachelors in Morocco?
OUTHMANE: In Morocco, yes.
FATIHA: In Morocco, yes. International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
OUTHMANE: International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
FATIHA: I-I-H-E-M
OUTHMANE: International Institute for Higher Education in Morocco.
FATIHA: International Institute–
OUTHMANE: For Higher Education in Morocco.
SUEÑOS: [00:32:03] Did he call a lot when he first came here? Do you remember?
OUTHMANE: Yes. He always called a lot. He calls at least two, three times a week.
SUEÑOS: What did he think of the states when he first got here? Do you think?
OUTHMANE: He loved it.
FATIHA: He loved the United States.
SUEÑOS: Really?
FATIHA: Oh yes. He fall in love with the United States. He loved the calif-- Florida. He loved Texas when he came here and especially Austin. He loved Austin.
OUTHMANE: Yeah. We went to visit Austin. He said I want to move here. Like one month later, he moved there. And we were crying, me and Brenda. He was living with me here. We were crying, no, don't go, don't go and he left.
FATIHA: And he was telling me all the time on the phone when you come here, this is a very nice place. You will like it. Mom. I will show you the places. They are nice places. There are lakes. There are--whenever you come here, I will take you around and show you things.
SUEÑOS: It makes sense cause he liked kayaking too.
FATIHA: Yes. Yes. Yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes. He has a kayak. He had a kayak in Florida. When he come here, he moved to Austin, he bought kayak again. So he was ready to start a new life.
FATIHA: Yes. [00:33:12] And he used to go to the gym.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
FATIHA: Twice or three, three times a week.
OUTHMANE: Something like that, yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:33:19] Oh wow. So he was very fit?
FATIHA: Yeah.
OUTHMANE: Yes, yes, yes.
SUEÑOS: [00:33:24] Is there, I know we mentioned the kayak, is there like an object that you think would represent his spirit?
OUTHMANE: [00:33:37] Something that represents his spirit? I can find something.
FATIHA: Many things. Many things.
SUEÑOS: Many things? If you can think of something, maybe later, you can take picture.
OUTHMANE: Okay
SUEÑOS: And you send it.
OUTHMANE: Okay. Yes. Yes.
SUEÑOS: I know it's a hard question.
OUTHMANE: It comes with time.
SUEÑOS: Yeah. Yeah, it comes with time. Exactly.
FATIHA: You know he talked to me few hours before the accident, you know. [00:34:05] The last thing he told me is how, where does–
OUTHMANE: Why did you name me Adil?
FATIHA: Where does the name Adil come from? [00:34:17]
OUTHMANE: He never asked questions like this.
FATIHA: I couldn't answer, you know. I said, well, I think about it. Because he called me late. In Morocco, it was 12:00 midnight or some over midnight and he was sitting in the garden and it was shade. He was very nice. It was looking good, and they were preparing to go to see the football match. And have a party. That was that night. In the morning when he left the party, he got shot.
SUEÑOS: Do you know what it means now? Adil?
OUTHMANE: Adil means just, just.
FATIHA: Adil, that means just, the just.
OUTHMANE: To be fair and just.
FATIHA: The person who is just.
OUTHMANE: To be fair and just. Fair. Fairness and justice.
FATIHA: Just.
OUTHMANE: Adil yes. [00:35:03]
FATIHA: That's means the just.
SUEÑOS: Wow. How did you find that name?
FATIHA: Well, it was an Egyptian actor. [00:35:12]
SUEÑOS: An Egyptian actor?
FATIHA: Yes, and I used--I was a fan of that actor. So, Adil Imam.
SUEÑOS: Adil Imam?
FATIHA: Yes. Adil Imam. Egyptian actor.
SUEÑOS: [00:35:28] Like this?
OUTHMANE: Yes, Imam, Imam with M. Imam, yes.
FATIHA: Egyptian actor. [00:35:35]
SPEAKER 4: In Spanish is a Muslim leader, right? An Imam?
FATIHA: Yeah, Imam is the--but here it's a family name.
OUTHMANE: It's like pastor. Imam is pastor. But that's last name. That's his last name. Adil Imam. He's not pastor. He's just a comedian, he's a comedian, yes. [00:35:53] His name Adil, Adil is just and fair, fairness and justice. Just.
SUEÑOS: [00:35:59] Do you think that he represented fairness and justice?
OUTHMANE: Yes, of course. Yes.
FATIHA: Oh, yes.
OUTHMANE: Yes, he did.
FATIHA: [00:36:07] Whenever I was just–(Speaking Arabic)
OUTHMANE: Like arguing with somebody.
FATIHA: Like arguing with somebody and I was telling him, look what, what (??) did to me, what she did to me or what he did to me, he usually tell me, mom just forgive. Just let it go. Please mom let it go and think about better thing. Think about yourself. Think about the family. Think about the children. Think about--just let it go, please mom. And he, he was always taking me to the right [00:36:48] you know? If I was angry with someone, you see what he did to me? What she did to me, oh, please mom, that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. Take it easy. And just forgive. [00:37:04]
SUEÑOS: That's beautiful.
OUTHMANE: He didn't deserve to die, but we cannot go against God's will you know? He created (??)
FATIHA: As the (??) said, he went early.
OUTHMANE: Yes, but so many people goes early like we cannot fight with God's justice. We're--we accepted it. He's just--like what came after that's what made us hurt more.
FATIHA: We know he's in a better place.
OUTHMANE: Because we--yes, because we know he was good guy and we know he never hurt people. So we know he's in better place. And in Islam, if somebody is killed, he goes straight to heaven. If somebody's killed without him starting something or--because my brother didn't do nothing. Like he just, the guy came and shot him. So he's gonna go straight to heaven plus, he's gonna welcome seventy-two people to Heaven.
SUEÑOS: Seventy-two people?
OUTHMANE: Seventy-two people, yes.
SUEÑOS: Why? Where does that come from?
OUTHMANE: It's in Quran. It's in the Quran.
SUEÑOS: Seventy-two people?
OUTHMANE: So when he goes to heaven he's gonna welcome seventy-two people, he's going to say, God. I want all these seventy-two people--and only the people who are killed. People who are killed people, people who drown, people who died with the battle of very, very bad sickness, like cancer, or something like that.
FATIHA: In war
OUTHMANE: People in war
SUEÑOS: Like Covid? Would that--?
FATIHA: No.
OUTHMANE: No, Covid is short term.
FATIHA: The poisonous, people who died poisonous.
OUTHMANE: Poison, or cancer. Or something that is long term. [00:38:33] Something like that makes you suffer. So that or you die, or somebody kills you or in war or you drown in the ocean. So all that you go straight to heaven, because you didn't like--
SUEÑOS: Is there a name for that?
OUTHMANE: Shahid.
FATIHA: [00:38:52] Shahid. He's shadid. [00:38:56] That's the adjective. Shadid.
SUEÑOS: Shahid?
FATIHA: Yes, that's it, shahid. That's it. And the name is Shahada. This is adjective.
OUTHMANE: No, no no (Speaking Arabic) [00:39:05] No, Shahid means he died as shahid.
FATIHA: Okay, shahid. shahid. yes.
OUTHMANE: So Shahid. Shahid means he's gonna go to heaven straight. And shahid usually we don't clean them and (??) with their blood.
FATIHA: [00:39:25] And they don't shave.
OUTHMANE: And that blood turns to good men later [00:39:29] when they go to--So shahid, we don't clean them and they go straight to heaven and they welcome seventy-two people and he says, God I want these seventy-two people to be--and they can be random people. They can be some people who helped him get justice. So you never know, maybe one of them, seriously you never know. So we know he's in heaven and we know he's going to welcome seventy-two people.
SPEAKER 4: It sounds to me like when the role he played in Florida, when people would come over from Morocco and he'd like welcome them into the country and kind of get them oriented. Is that like a similar role that he would play?
OUTHMANE: No. That's a new revision(??) But that's how he was. But this is in religion.
SPEAKER 4: Okay.
OUTHMANE: The religion says that if people die–
FATIHA: Accidentally.
Speaker 4: Okay.
OUTHMANE: Shahid then they go straight to heaven and then they welcome, they welcome like seventy-two people to heaven to say like God, we want, I want this--
FATIHA: Without any punishment. Whatever they did before in their lifetime, they never get punished by God. So they go straight to heaven.
SUEÑOS: [00:40:36] What does justice and fairness mean to you guys? Right now?
OUTHMANE: Life in jail. For the guy who killed him.
SUEÑOS: In jail?
OUTHMANE: Yes. And to give an example to other people to not do it. Because we don't want him to be dead all for no reason. If they want to keep the law of protecting themselves, yes, but don't include outside. Like that should be--outside is outside. Like it's not your land. You have big land, somebody want to pee or use the--and you come and you shoot him or--you understand? People they stopping for so many reasons. Like, when I think about it, you can be me, it can be you. It can be, can be the DA by himself. It can be him in that car, that night, and he will shoot him. You can be anybody. And I told the DA he might be, it can be your son.
FATIHA: I don't think he will shoot him when he comes close to the window and he will see that he's American, not ‘stranger’ between brackets. I don't think it would kill him straight away.
OUTHMANE: [00:41:37] No, I mean, I mean, if they let this go, this law go, then the people will start using it, because there’s gonna be precedent in the court. So anybody who do it after Terry Turner is not gonna go to jail because it would be precedent. So his lawyer will be like, oh there was a case in 2022 or 2021, and the guy was not getting(??) them indicted. That's a precedent so you should let my client go free.
SUEÑOS: They indicted Rittenhouse. What's his name?
SPEAKER 4: Kyle Rittenhouse.
SUEÑOS: Recently.
OUTHMANE: He got away with it, but that's a different one. That's a different, that's people going to him and they try to get his gun. He got scared, but that's different like situation. But my brother didn't have nothing with him and he was in a defensive.
FATIHA: He was in his car, sitting in his car, with the windows rolled up, closed. And he was looking at his phone, lit, the phone was lit on and there was his address on the phone. The address to go back. So [00:42:42] where is the treatment(??) here? Where is the arm here? Where is the--nothing?
OUTHMANE: This is not. Even if, even if he had a gun, let's say he, my brother had a gun. It still is not threatening (??) him because my brother was backing up.
FATIHA: Yes.
OUTHMANE: You understand? Like there's not even a gram of the guy, like the gram of reasons why the guy should feel threatened, there is not. There is not.
FATIHA: And the car was far away from his entrance. [00:43:12] It was really far.
SUEÑOS: [00:43:15] Have you all had any dreams about him? Since it happened?
OUTHMANE: Yes. Yes my dad first, he had a dream of him. My brother was in a tree. He was still young, so he was in a tree and my dad says to him, come down, come down and he didn't want to. At a certain point. My dad was like come down or I'll come up to you. And then after my brother died--
FATIHA: You are going to fall, just come down, come down. And he was not responding. So his father told him, come here, come down, or I come up to you, and take you down.
OUTHMANE: So, after that, my dad got COVID and he was hospitalized. He almost died. So we thought that that's what it meant. So he said, come up or I'm going to come up to you. come down or I'll come up to you. So we thought that's what he meant, that he's gonna go up to him.
FATIHA: And I dreamt of him once.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
FATIHA: I was sitting at a table like this, with friends, you know, and that place was only for women [00:44:18] for women. There is like a party there and I was sitting with the other women. And one time I saw Adil coming behind me. He was with the--and he was the age of thirteen years old.
SUEÑOS: [00:44:39] You both have been seeing him as younger version.
OUTHMANE: No. Me no.
FATIHA: Thirteen years old.
OUTHMANE: Me I had a dream of him. He had a fight and I didn't know and when I came I found all in bruises.
FATIHA: And he was just smiling(??) but not talking. He was not talking to me. So I said, he was just smiling(??) to me. That means I am here. Don't, don't be afraid. I'm not lost. I'm here. And he was passing by with two or three friends and he was the age of thirteen years old.
OUTHMANE: And me. I never had this dream but I had it the first time I dream about him it was him fighting and I didn't know when I came, I found him with bruises and everything. And I told him what happened? And he told me like, these two guys beat me and I went to beat them. And that's what's happening, I'm fighting for him. Like, I swear to you. That's what I dreamt about. It's like he needed help for me to fight for him or something like that. And I remember that, exactly. And I usually don't remember the details of dreams, but that one I remembered. [crosstalk]
SPEAKER 4: Do you remember who the two guys were? Or what you remember about those two guys?
OUTHMANE: No. I don't remember. It was just two random guys, and there was no details of them, but I know that he was like somebody, like they jumped him, two people and he came to me and it was like all with bruises and blood and I told him, okay, let's go and we went to beat them. And probably that's what it meant that I had to fight for him.
SUEÑOS: You were defending him. Even though you're the younger brother.
OUTHMANE: Yes.
SUEÑOS: It was normally him--
OUTHMANE: Or him asking for help. Keep fighting for me brother. You know? You never know. These dreams are weird, but after that, like I didn't dream about him. Like I dream, but it was just like a little bit but not as exact detailed as that one.[00:46:22]
SUEÑOS: He kind of left you that responsibility and--
OUTHMANE: Not only that, it's just my life changed. Because with him, it was only me and him in United States for like more than eight, seven, eight years. So he was everything for me. Like, yes, I have my parents but they're in Morocco so for me, he was everything. Yes we fight as brothers. We fight sometimes but--
FATIHA: But he was always there to try to protect him and to help him, to advise him to--
SUEÑOS: Did he ever defend you from like bullies or something at school?
OUTHMANE: No, we never got bullied.
SUEÑOS: You never got bullied at school? Were you the cool kids then?
OUTHMANE: No, we're not cool kids, but we never let give people the chance to bully us.
SUEÑOS: No.
OUTHMANE: Yes, we never--I used to be bad. Not my brother. But me, I used to fight a lot.
SUEÑOS: Really?
OUTHMANE: Yeah. My brother used to fight but with the--
SUEÑOS: With words.
OUTHMANE: No, not with the--he doesn't talk. [00:47:16] He doesn't talk. If there is something he goes fight, but (??) but after that–
FATIHA: (Speaking Arabic)
OUTHMANE: But me, I used to bring a lot of problems to the house. [00:47:27] But he, no. And everything was–like sometimes we do things together me and him, but he gets [00:47:31] (??) me at the end and I get punished by my dad. So I always get that, get his part and my part
(laughter)
SUEÑOS: That's your role. [00:47:40]
OUTHMANE: Yes, but [00:47:44] He was a good guy. He was great guy. He didn't deserve to die. He didn't deserve to die. Trust me. And I'm sure he didn't do nothing wrong to that guy. He didn't.
FATIHA: I'm sure he would have tell him, Hi, sir. Good morning, sir, or good evening, sir. I'm sure of this.
OUTHMANE: But he was like this. So probably he was begging, please don't shoot or something because if he shoot him and my brother's hand was there, the bullet is so fast like by the time he's gonna be like that, he's gonna already--but the bullet went through his hand so it means he had his hand like this already. So he was begging.
FATIHA: He pointed the gun before.
SUEÑOS: [00:48:18] He probably, he saw him coming, and then he--
OUTHMANE: No he saw him doing like that and my brother did like that
FATIHA: He knocked with the gun? He knocked at the [00:48:27]
OUTHMANE: There's two little chips in the–that shows that he tried to break the window and it didn't break. [00:48:33] My brother did like that and he shot him. So, it was an execution. [00:48:40] I wish I could do that to him. But I can I cannot leave this woman alone. But at certain point I was thinking about it because there is no justice. There was no--all they tell me all this guy--even though I'm not the type who do that at all. Like, I never owned a gun. I don't, I don't have a gun. I don't believe in the gun. And I don't believe in people would hurt me for us not hurting them. But at a certain point, I was thinking about it. I was like the heck? Are they going to let him go just like that? And nothing's gonna happen? So I was gonna go do it and do me after him. But I couldn't. Like it was her who stopped me. Like not, she didn't tell me stop or something. Just in my mind. It came to my mind. Me, I'm the guy who never had this kind of thoughts in my mind. Go to hurt somebody. But you do that to very good people, very good person. That's not acceptable. If it was me I would hit him with the car or something, but my brother is too good. You understand? Like for me I would not be, I would be afraid but I don't think that the same outcome would have happened. Like me, I would fight back or I would hit you with the car or go inside with the car, go inside his house. Like, I don't care. Or accelerate. Because the guy's coming to shoot me. But my brother never move. Never, he never did something.
SUEÑOS: He expected the best from people.
OUTHMANE: Exactly. He expected the guy's gonna talk to him or something like that. That's why he stopped. Because the guy doesn't have enough time to, [00:50:01] the guy doesn't have enough time to reach him from the, from his door to where my brother was parked. It's too far. [00:50:09] Yes.
SPEAKER 4: It's hard when you can't depend on the system to give you justice and have to try to think well how can I make justice happen?
OUTHMANE: It's hard. It can change you as a person. It can change you. Like it makes you so angry to a point where you can change as a person. And that's the result when you see black people being mad in the streets. That's the result of so many years of discrimination, of hate, of racism. That's why you see black people they're very, very, very angry. And I don't blame them, especially after what happened to my brother. I don't blame them now. Like I'm with them. Because you, you live in--your brother gets killed by cop, your father gets killed by somebody else and the police not bringing you justice, your cousin or something, and then things keep happening over the years, especially before they have separate bathrooms, Black people and white people. They have better universities and better days. Of course, people will grow with hate. Like, just me, look at me. I never had problem with the police. I never done anything wrong in my life. Nothing. Nothing. And I had this thought came to my mind at certain point. So, you should not blame people if they get--if they're angry about the society.
FATIHA: He showed us whether--he showed us his criminal record. Nothing.
SPEAKER 4: Terry Turner?
FATIHA: Yes. No, Adil. The other one is--
OUTHMANE: He had the burglary. He was a burglar.
FATIHA: He was a burglar
SUEÑOS: What?
SPEAKER 4: Terry was a burglar?
FATIHA: Yes.
OUTHMANE: He was arrested for burglary and convicted. [00:51:37]
SPEAKER 4: How long ago?
OUTHMANE: Like seven years.
SPEAKER 4: Seven years ago?
OUTHMANE: [00:51:39] In the seven years.
FATIHA: A long time ago
OUTHMANE: But people never change.
SUEÑOS: [00:51:44] But still, they should have seen that in--they should have put his should put his bail at a higher amount.
OUTHMANE: Yes they've seen it, they know it. They put in the presentation. They know it. [00:51:52] And the guy's very confrontational, the guy's very racist. And we told the DA go (??)
FATIHA: They said he was co-parenting. [00:52:01] That's why they didn’t arrest him, and that's why--
SPEAKER 4: Not a threat to the community.
FATIHA: Uh-huh. He has many guns at home. He shot--he used one gun. He came to someone and he doesn't present any threat to the community.
SPEAKER 4: And they sent it in a press release to let everyone know.
SUEÑOS: They sent it in the press release?
SPEAKER 4: The Sheriff's Office did. And didn't even name Terry Turner. They just said--
FATIHA: Yes.
SPEAKER 4: They declined to name him and just said he's cooperative. We don't view him as a threat to the community.
SUEÑOS: And that was after the media?
SPEAKER 4: No right after the murder explaining why they weren't going to arrest him after he'd just killed Adil. [00:52:37]
OUTHMANE: They're very racist people. The cops. Like I've seen them in their eyes and they're very racist. Very racist people.
FATIHA: What do the community they have think?
SPEAKER 4: Of the police?
FATIHA: Yes.
SPEAKER 4: I think most people are horrified. I find very few people that are defending the police. I think the police are just not ever accustomed to people speaking out and denouncing them. And so I think this is one of the first times where all of a sudden there's a huge spotlight on them. They're like, oh gosh, we can't get away with what we've gotten away with for decades. And I think it's--and that's why like two different people have come up and like. Hey, (??) we want to tell you about this other thing about the district attorney or about the district judge.
OUTHMANE: I saw the guy with district attorney with the judge and stuff like that, he was the grand jury judge, jury.
SPEAKER 4: Yeah, this guy he was like he was formerly a justice of the peace and he was talking (??)
OUTHMANE: That's why I said he should go to jail. Both of them. The guy who--
SPEAKER 4: Those are serious allegations
OUTHMANE: That's just by itself. Seriously. And if I told you, if somebody--if a black person did it or a Democrat did it, they are so weak--look now the--
FATIHA: They present the document not signed–
OUTHMANE: It was forged, it was forged. He signed it, it was forged. [00:53:38]
FATIHA: They signed it in the place on the name--
OUTHMANE: Yes it was forged. It was forgery.
SPEAKER 4: It was a judge who came forward to announce all of that so--
OUTHMANE: And Cuomo, Cuomo, Cuomo (??), Cuomo from New York (??) for just for harassment and he might go to jail for it and look these people what they're doing and nobody's talking to them. Like it's so much, it's so much.
FATIHA: Did you meet any gun owner?
SPEAKER 4: [00:54:02] Yeah. I have some friends--
OUTHMANE: What would they think?
SPEAKER 4: Yeah. I mean, I think that, yeah, that this is a case in which, I mean, they're kind of liberals and leftists but I think, yeah, they agree that this is dangerous. You know, that guns aren't meant to be used in this sort of situation. And I know that I think Rebecca's talked to more gun owner organizations, like she talked to that one gun owner organization and let them know that this is a threat to their rights. You know, that if you know, so--that is very interesting about like, whose paying Bloomquist if Terry Turner doesn't have the money. I mean, that's a great point.
OUTHMANE: I'm telling you who? Who exactly? It's either for PR [00:54:36] for public relations [00:54:39] he's doing for public--but this case is very hard for PR. You know, he might lose it. So somebody's paying him. Because he's a high-profile attorney and he cannot afford it. Somebody's paying for him, for sure.
SPEAKER 4: I guess there's no way to find out who, unless–it's not public information.
OUTHMANE: No. No, there's no way. No.
SPEAKER 4: [00:54:59] I would guess the NRA,
FATIHA: Please help yourself.
(crosstalk)
(side talk)
FATIHA: [00:55:46] I can't understand, many times he speaks so fast for me so I can't understand what he's saying.
SUEÑOS: Oh really? Me too.
FATIHA: And the other persons, when they speak little bit less slowly, so I can understand. But show him I have (??).
SUEÑOS: Oh my gosh tell him.
FATIHA: I will.
SUEÑOS: Tell him so he knows. Because he's always talking to me--
FATIHA: so fast.
SUEÑOS: Especially when he's in the car because I can't read his lips.
FATIHA: uh huh. That makes it more difficult.
SUEÑOS: And then later he'll be like, oh remember we have to do this today? And I'm like no. And he's like yeah I told you yesterday, and I'm like--but I didn't understand. That's funny. Peek-a-boo.
OUTHMANE: She hates us today because she stayed there all day. Normally she stays outside and she play, she fly anywhere she wants.
SUEÑOS: Oh really?
OUTHMANE: Yeah but today--
SUEÑOS: She bites women [00:56:44].
OUTHMANE: She bites women.
SUEÑOS: She bites women?
FATIHA: Yes, only women. Yes, but he, she never bite him. Me and Brenda, all the time.
SUEÑOS: No!
OUTHMANE: She's jealous.
SUEÑOS: She's jealous.
OUTHMANE: She's jealous. [00:57:00]
FATIHA: I don't know what's happened to her.
SUEÑOS: No, you know, birds are actually jealous creatures. I read somewhere that yeah, they actually--because they mate for life for the most part and they, they're capable of having jealousy.
FATIHA: Oh, maybe that's what--
SUEÑOS: That doesn't make it right. What you think I'm jealous?
FATIHA: [00:57:20] Brenda said, she said that she will keep her in the cage for the whole month.
OUTHMANE: What? What do you want?
SUEÑOS: No way!
OUTHMANE: What do you want?
SUEÑOS: Can I take a picture of you guys? [00:57:34]
OUTHMANE: What? You want to go eat? [00:57:38] I think she wants to go. Go now, go.
SPEAKER 4: [00:57:55] Did you tell them what you want to do with interviews? Ultimately babe?
SUEÑOS: [00:57:59] No, I guess I didn't.
OUTHMANE: [00:58:04] And if you have any questions that comes to your mind--
[END OF TAPE 1]
Location:
Protocol:
Community:
Category:
Keywords:
Justice, Racism, Islamophobia, Racially Motivated Murder, Gun Violence, Immigration, Morocco, Caldwell CountyCollections:
Original Date:
2022 February 19thCreator:
Contributor:
Licensing Options:
Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International (CC BY-NC-ND 4.0)
Publisher:
Texas After Violence ProjectIdentifier:
tav00131Type:
Format: